On Heaven of Nine Levels

– Conversations between Yan An and Wu Jian’an

Wu Jian’an and I twice talked in depth about the exhibition Heaven of Nine Levels. The first time was at Chambers Fine Art, Beijing on March 15, 2008 (from 4 to 6pm), and then four days later on the night of March 19 at his home at Wangjing (from 8pm to midnight). The conversations focused on the content of the artworks, the selection of material, the display design, Wu Jian’an’s own interpretation and so on. They reveal his thoughts behind the creation of the exhibition, and thus can provide a better understanding of the exhibition. I edited the conversations as follows:

Yan: What’s your plan for the exhibition? What will you display?

Wu: The core of the exhibition includes three pieces. I was writing the checklist this morning. The first is Heaven of Nine Levels, the second Xingtian, and the last being Head of Chiyou. All three pieces are two-dimensional and carved from ox hide. The plan also includes two bronze pillars that reach from the floor to the ceiling of the gallery, and they will supplement the three pieces.

Heaven of Nine Levels

Yan: I feel that your entire plan for the exhibition is developed according to the work Heaven of Nine Levels. All others pieces provide footnotes to it. Is it so?

Wu: I’ve never thought of it this way, but your interpretation also has some merit. What Heaven of Nine Levels expresses is logic and power. Nine kinds of animals appear in it, including bird, human-faced bird, human-headed bird, winged human, human, tiger, frog, giant salamander, and lastly fish. Fish and bird are relatively “pure” animals. The human-headed bird has a human face and a bird mouth – it’s the intermediate evolutionary stage from bird to human.

Yan: You mean that you fabricated some of the animals?

Wu: Yes, they are fabricated animals. There exist many designs for the human-headed-bird, but I altered them – the body of the human-headed-bird is still a bird, but the human-headed-bird has a human head and human legs. The winged-human is a human being with feathers – the wings are the arms. The Chinese legend of “growing feathers to become an immortal” refers to this image. My design for the winged-human does not look like a human with feathers, but more like an ape, with long hair. The image of a human is not particularly unusual – it is merely a human form with four limbs stretching out. The tiger is actually the animal Luwu in Classic of the Mountains and Seas. It is the guardian animal protecting the gate to Kunlun mountain, the capital city in many traditional legends. Its gate has two doors. The front one is protected by Kaimingshou, a tiger with nine human heads. The second door is protected by Luwu, a tiger with nine tails. Following Luwu are amphibians – moving to water – and I use a frog and a giant salamander here. The outermost level is fish. The animals are arranged in the sequence from sky, land to water. They are also in the order from flying to walking upright, crawling on four feet and ending in swimming.

The nine animals featured in Heaven of Nine Levels are arranged in a spatial order from sky to water, which also symbolizes the levels of the universe. The fish in water refers to the deepest level in space and the fish in the sky the highest. Each of the animals in between occupies its own level. If I am situated inside, you are bigger and biting me; but once I move outside, I become bigger and it’s my turn to bite you. The animals have such a relationship.

Yan: It reminds me of your interest in novels of spirits and ghosts.

Wu: I am obsessed with traditional legends that are beyond any kind of explanation, such as stories in Classic of the Mountains and Seas and ghosts and immortals painted on coffins dated to the Han dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD). They are the gold of mysterious experiences. I always want to absorb their energy and use them in my creation.

Yan: But in reality, you do not really borrow from Classic of the Mountains and Seas..

Wu: No, I don’t. I fabricate all the time.

Yan: What is the meaning of the title and image of Heaven of Nine Levels?

Wu: The image of Heaven of Nine Levels suggests the rule of the strong devouring the weak. If you are bigger than me, you can eat me. And vice versa. When I grow bigger I will be able to eat you. Nobody wins absolutely, and nobody loses absolutely. It is like the situation illustrated by the diagram of taiji. When situations change, people change too. Even though you used to be stronger and able to eat me, now I’m bigger than you and capable of eating you. Nobody occupies a fixed position.

It took me a along time to come to this title. I originally thought of something like “evolution” and even “big fish eating small fish.” Only recently did I decide on the name of Heaven of Nine Levels. I also want to use it as the title of the exhibition, for it provides a respectable and mysterious feeling. At the same time, “Heaven of Nine Levels” has some personal significance. I read a manga magazine when I was little (the late 1980s when I was in elementary school). It was not a famous magazine, but I remember it was called Donghua Dawang (Collection of Animation).

It tells the story of Guanyin Bodhisattva’s attendant Shancai. One day, the Jade Emperor needs an attendant, so Guanyin sends Shancai over. When Shancai arrives at the palace in heaven, he discovers that the palace has nine levels arranged in a vertical order. I forget the exact order, but the Jade Emperor is at the top, Taisha Laojun is directly below. In one of the levels lives the God of Fire, but I don’t remember the exact number. Below the God of Fire lives Zhinu (the Goddess of Weaving), who is above the God of Thunder. Further down are the Four Guardian Kings that protect the palace. They live at the lowest level. All kinds of conflicts exist between the nine levels. Why? When Taishan Laojun makes the immortal elixir, he uses fire. The smoke rises vertically and reaches the Jade Emperor who lives right above him. The smoke causes the Jade Emperor to sneeze constantly. Shancai asks: “where is the smoke coming from?” and the Jade Emperor replies: “I don’t know what kind of elixir Laojun is making today. But it’s very choking.” Shancai then goes to see Zhinu who is diligently weaving silk. Suddenly, a spark of fire dropped from above directly onto the silk and left a hole in it. Zhinu is very frustrated, “I need to weave a certain amount of silk before I can meet my lover Niulang.” However, above her lives the God of Fire, whose wheel of fire drops sparks all the time. Shancai then goes to the Four Guardian Kings and finds that they have a headache. “The God of Thunder who lives above us uses his carriage everyday, and the noise is unbearable.” Everybody thinks that the order of the nine levels is unreasonable, but it has existed for thousands of years and hard to change. The rest of the story tells how Shancai convinces everybody to change the order of the nine levels and eventually achieves a result that satisfies everybody. I remember the final order being Taishang Laojun on the top so that his smoke won’t choke anybody anymore. Below Taishang Laojun is the Jade Emperor, who lives above Zhinu. Zhinu can now weave calmly in a quiet environment. The God of Fire lives at the second bottom level, and below him is the God of Thunder. The God of Thunder likes fire, and he is happy that sparks from the God of Fire drop down constantly. And since he is at the bottom level, people can hear his thunder more clearly. I cannot forget this story, and Shancai’s last word in the story is crucial. He says “the Jade Emperor orders the nine levels to be rearranged.” It is actually a lie, for the Jade emperor has never issued such an order. But since everybody is happy with the new arrangement, it works.

I always remember this sentence, which even rhymes in Chinese. I feel that underlying it is a powerful determination to rebel. You know, to change the order of heaven is the ultimate change! I like this rebellious sentiment.

I also added the infinitely circulating and contradictory dominant-subordinate relationship into the design of Heaven of Nine Levels. It’s like issuing a passport to rebellion to a mature and rational world. At the same time, my childhood memories and feelings are crystallized and disguised in it. The name of “Heaven of Nine Levels” becomes the only clue to such an origin.

When I was making the design, the words “heaven of nine levels” came in to my head several times, but I didn’t pay much attention to it. I also called the piece by this name when chatting with friends from time to time. But only recently did I finalize the title. I like the name, and hope it can evoke some kind of feelings among people. If they know the story I just told, it will be best. But if they don’t, that’s fine too. It’s an easy name to remember.

Xingtian and Head of Chiyou

Yan: The exhibition is also named Heaven of Nine Levels. What’s the relationship between this concept and the other two pieces?

Wu: You mean Xingtian and Head of Chiyou, right? I think they both express a kind of hatred toward existing systems of order, a longing for change and determination to pursue change. It corresponds to the spirit of Heaven of Nine Levels. These two legendary heroes (i.e. Xingtian and Chiyou) should be understood as the sensible symbol of the rational meaning of Heaven of Nine Levels.

Yan: It is true that the two characters you chose have the spirit of rebellion and uprightness, but they are peripheral figures. They are not the most typical or even suitable examples of rebellion against existing systems.

Wu: You are actually right. But I do not necessarily feel connected to the most suitable examples or the most popular characters. I like the Monkey King, but he is too perfect and lacks the violence to kill at the moments when it is necessary. I am more sensitive to violence and mild evil. If the Monkey King had killed the Buddha when he was fighting in heaven, or if he had been buried under the five-finger mountain without being rescued, I would definitely choose him. Xingtian is a legendary character that I have liked since I was little, but I’m afraid of him at the same time. I didn’t like Chiyou at all when I was younger, because there were no images of him in the books I read. I only remember one picture book I read when I was in elementary school. There was an image of Chiyou see from the back. It tells the story of why maple leaves turn red. Chiyou was defeated in a battle and Emperor Huangdi sent two people to kill him in a maple forest. When they killed Chiyou, his blood dyed the leaves red. From then on, in order to commemorate him maple leaves will turn red at the time when Chiyou was killed. My childhood memory of Chiyou … Anyway, it was a strange feeling. I didn’t like his name at all, because it was hard to pronounce, and the sound gave me the image of a scary enemy. But Xingtian is different. There are many images of him, and very recognizable – Xingtian doesn’t have a head.

Yan: Has your interest in Xingtian anything to do with [the twentieth century writer] Lu Xun?

Wu: No. Maybe Lu Xun wrote about him, but I don’t remember anything in particular. Tao Yuanming (365-427) wrote two poems about him though. Xingtian has an image. He has no head, and his eyes grow on his body. He also holds an ax. I’ve never seen a similar image anywhere else, and other images I saw when I was little are not as weird. In the novel Journey to the West there are many images of ghosts and spirits, but they all have four limbs and a head. If they don’t have a head it means that they are dead. The most grotesque is perhaps the White Bone Spirit, but still she doesn’t stand out as much as Xingtian. Actually all the ghosts in Journey to the West are animals in human form. But Xingtian is not. He planted a very strange seed in my imagination. What will this seed turn into? I don’t know. But I feel strongly attached to it. I feel comfortable and excited to design the image of Xingtian. I always feel that I’m the best candidate to design his image. I have a strong sympathy with him.

Do you know the process of making Head of Chiyou? I finished the drawing in 2007. The complete drawing is Lingchi Chiyou, and Head of Chiyou is part of the drawing – its head. At the time, I explained the work like this:

Chiyou, the oldest, strongest and fiercest enemy of the Huaxia (i.e. Chinese) group. When I was little, I was scared by the name, and still so now. How can I get rid off such a fear? My solution is to use my imagination. Lingchi is a cruel punishment invented in the Ming/Qing dyansties (1368-1911), and perhaps no other punishment in the world is more dramatic than it. It cuts the flesh of person piece by piece. It takes more than 3,000 cuts to kill a person and lasts for several days. The degree of cruelty depends on the skill of the executioner and his understanding of a human body. If he cuts too deep, the person being punished would die immediately. If the person being punished dies before reaching the ordered number of cuts, the executioner himself would be killed. In general, lingchi took place in the pubic, and anybody could observe it. It's the ultimate spectacle of the human society, and includes an entertaining aspect. To get rid of the most scary enemy in one's memory in an entertaining way -- it shows courage, power, or previlige. It provides satisfaction, and thus calms down a scared heart. It makes you feel good, but is a very coward solution.

An Increasing Interest in Material

Yan: What does “an increasing interest” mean?

Wu: I can only say that my interest in experimenting with materials is increasing. When I first started to make artworks, I started with simple and normal materials. I couldn’t afford other materials, had no experience, and didn’t know much about technique. Nor could I find anybody to show me these at the time. Even if I had any ideas, I wouldn’t be able to realize them. So I started with scissors and paper, things I could handle by myself. I still like working with paper. After working with paper for a while, I understood this material better, and was able to add some additional ways of treating it to control its quality. This is the basis for experimenting with other materials. At the beginning of 2005, I met Mr. Wang from Shaanxi province. From our conversations, I learned that I could first make drawings on paper and then carve the design into ox hide. I was excited about the possibility of experimenting with different materials. Why don’t I give it a try? How much of a breakthrough the use of this material would lead to, I didn’t know. Was ox hide better than paper, I didn’t know. But there was this inexplicable impulse, and I wanted to try it out. I wanted to find out the results of this new method. When I used stainless steel to make 《凌迟蚩尤》, it was the same feeling. I have a friend Lu Haojun, who once showed me a carved stainless lamp cover produced in Portugal, and I told myself that I have to find out how my design would look like when carved in stainless steel. I knew that my designs can transcend the experience of normal materials, so I was eager to take a look at the final product. I was more excited when 《凌迟蚩尤》was taken down from the cutting machine than when it was exhibited in the exhibition hall. At the time, I even felt a little overwhelmed by the thought that iron and steel could produce something like this. I also remember the time when four pieces of carved stainless steel were put together at the factory. It was in the early evening. Workers had gone home and the lighting in the factory was very dim. The last rays of sunlight came in through the door and illuminated the body of Chiyou. It was transparent but also shining.

Maybe because of such curiosity and excitement, I always want to experiment.

Yan: When making a new piece of work, you always think of what to draw first, right? For example, you first decide on the image of Heaven of Nine Levels, then choose material – stainless steel, leather, or something else. Is that correct?

Wu: In fact, when I first started to draw Heaven of Nine Levels, I had already thought of using ox hide to carve it. Thus when I was designing the image, the connecting details also followed the traditional technique of shadow puppets. On the other hand, the paper-cuts of 2003 focus on the completeness of outlines. At the time, I tried not to break the outlines, and did not put any details inside them. The connecting parts are simple as well since I didn’t pay too much attention to the pieces’ sturdiness. The cutting and connecting of shadow puppets is more complex and difficult. It needs to be sturdy but also beautiful. Traditionally, the puppets are used on stage. If the connections are not strong, the puppets will break easily. When I started to draw Heaven of Nine Levels, I was very conscious of this point. Where should I start and stop a cut? Which parts should be connected? All the details need to be thought out carefully. In this aspect, the piece is close to the language used in traditional shadow puppets.

Yan: Is it the same for Xingtian and Chiyou?

Wu: Not completely. Chiyou is close to Heaven of Nine Levels, and follows the technique and language of shadow puppets. But Xingtian is closer to paper-cut, and new cuts were added in the process of carving to make it sturdier. I didn’t design these cuts, but Mr. Wang added them based on his experience. But I added all the cuts in 《凌迟蚩尤》 myself. Judging from the final product, it is very sturdy.

Crazy about Traditional Culture

Yan: When you were thinking of using ox skin as material, or when you were designing the images for Heaven of Nine Levels, did you think of some other aspects? For example, traditional culture?

Wu: Yes, I did. But if you want me to pinpoint which aspect of traditional culture, I cannot say. Before I entered college, my understanding of traditional culture, other than the Chinese language and the concept of family, was close to zero. I knew very little about it before my junior year in college. And my understanding of art was Michelangelo, drawing, watercolor and so on. In my junior year I met a Spanish friend, and we went to many historical sites together. Before that, I had no interest in them at all, although I had been to the Forbidden City and the Summer Palace when I was little. But she felt these were wonderful things. After every visit, she would express her enthusiasm, which also influenced me. I started to develop some interest in traditional things. I also needed to translate for her. I was not very good at it, so I needed to do some research beforehand. She always asked what this image means, who this is and so on, so I needed to be prepared. I was like a tour guide, but it also gave me the opportunity to learn about things. I didn’t know anything about them before and there was no class to take. Especially things like information on images, I had to look for materials to learn about it.

Then for a while, I was wildly enthusiastic about studying traditional culture. Anything related to old China, I wanted to learn about it. For about a year and a half, I copied traditional Chinese images and designs that I saw, like shadow puppets, the Dunhuang grottoes, frescos, carved stones and so on. From them I learned about the use of lines and curves in traditional design, and my feelings about lines and curves changed too. My control of hand also developed, but the real breakthrough came when I started to cut paper. I used a lot of curving lines, and my understanding of how to control curves, including how to connect them and their structural relationship, benefited from the copies I made.

Yan: I asked you when you started to cut paper why didn’t you use a computer to design it.

Wu: I remember.

Yan: I remember your answer clearly. You said that you find that the hand is most suitable for drawing a beautiful curve, a curve that can touch people.

Wu: I don’t know why. Maybe it is related to the human body, including its strength. If you can draw a good curve, you must have used your strength skillfully and smoothly.

Yan: This can be connected to calligraphy. In traditional Chinese calligraphy, there is a saying that where to use strength depends on the size of your characters. If you write big characters, use you lower arm. For medium sized characters use the wrist, and for small ones use fingers. At the time, I liked your answer very much. Visually beautiful things are in fact connected with the body and joints.

Then you entered the Central Academy of Fine Arts for a Master’s degree. Which department did you study in?

Wu: The Studio of Folk Art, part of the Humanities division. It used to be the Department of Folk Art.

Yan: In your MFA courses, did you learn anything besides traditional folk art, such as contemporary art?

Wu: The regularly classes were not directly related to art making. When I was in school, my education focused on research – how to collect material, how to do field work, how to organize collected material and write papers. To a certain degree, it also strengthened my understanding of traditional culture.

Understand the Images

Yan: Will you hang the pieces from the ceiling? How high?

Wu: About three meters above the ground. The size of Heaven of Nine Levels is 3.7 x 5.3 meters. Thus, a visitor will not be able to see the entire work unless he walks underneath it. It is like looking at a mural while walking in a cave – there is not enough space to step back to see it in entirety. One can only see it section by section. When I was making the pencil sketches for the work, I felt: when you look at each section closely, you can see details very clearly as if reading a book. If you shrink the image and put it into a book, perhaps you can see it in its entirety immediately, but it’s also impossible to see it clearly – all the lines are shrunk beyond recognition. Even if the printing quality is good enough to show individual lines, our eyes won’t be able to detect all the information. Then I thought, there is actually no need to see it clearly, otherwise the work would appear much smaller than it actually is. So I want to provide an incomplete visual experience.

Yan: If shortening the distance between the work and the audience makes it impossible to grasp the work in its entirety, how should one understand the image?

Wu: I think it provides a different way of understanding. Understanding does not necessarily mean first seeing the object in its entirety and then interpreting what this section means or what that section symbolizes. The way we look at things is actually a way of fast scanning. We scan the whole thing quickly and obtain a visual impression. If we magnify what our eyes see, an artistic experience emerges – to obtain visual impressions by looking at many sections and organizing them in our mind to create a complete visual experience of the object. It’s like looking at the sculptures from the Western Han dynasty, which force you to see them this way. The animals and creatures carved in marble are beautiful, but you cannot grasp the entire form immediately, because their forms emerge from the natural shape of stones. Some incisions are not very deep, impossible to detect from afar. We need to move around the sculptures while observing the details, from different angles and different heights.

When you move around a work and try to assemble an image in your mind, it’s a very interesting experience. Looking at the murals in Dunhuang grottos is the same. The caves are dark and there is no room inside for you to see the frescoes from a distance. You have to search your imagination and memory, and together with partial images you put together the entire picture. If you see the whole thing immediately, there will be no mystery.

Yan: I actually agree with you that it’s better not to add color to Heaven of Nine Levels.

Wu: I think, whether you call it a risk or visual effect, the key is to think clearly of a purpose. If color can bring out the best visual effect, I will use it. I decided to keep the original color of the ox hide, and exhibit it together with some charts and explanatory texts. Together, I think, they can help the audience to understand the work.

The Creation Process

Yan: Mr. Wang Tianwen, who helped with making the work, has a rich experience in carving ox hide. Can you talk about your experience of working with him? What does he think of your work?

Wu: I’ve known Mr. Wang for a long time, since I did a research on shadow puppets for an M.A. thesis. In 2004 I interviewed Mr. Wang for the first time, and he told me about the traditional technique of making shadow puppets. I asked him: can you do something more experimental, for example using the traditional technique to make new designs? He was very interested in the idea. He had been making shadow puppets for more than forty years. He knew immediately how to cut a puppet design by just looking at it. But he didn’t want to make the same thing for his whole life, and wanted to have some new challenge. This is the beginning of our co-operation. In 2006, for the first time we made a work together – Xingtian. We experimented and failed several times before successfully making the final work.

Yan: What kind of experiments did you undertake?

Wu: I experimented a lot with the work Xingtian – how to keep a long line straight, how to flatten a piece of thick ox hide, how to prevent distortion, how to connect sections and so on. In terms of size, Xingtian and Heaven of Nine Levels are much bigger than traditional shadow puppets. Xingtian used the hide of five oxen, and Nine-layered Heaven more than twenty. Actually, only a small portion of an ox’s hide can be used, but you have to buy the entire hide. And only after the hide has been treated can you tell if it is suitable for making artworks. There are other factors too, like the consistency of hide quality, thickness, and color, for most parts of an ox’s hide are not suitable for detailed carving. Moreover, my works require precise connections of different sections. In traditional shadow puppets, one centimeter difference in connections is okay, but would cause disasters in my works. These are probably aspects that nobody had ever tried, even Mr. Wang. The thickest part of Xingtian is about three millimeters thick – too hard to carve. We had to use wet towels to soften it before starting to carve.

Yan: When I saw you last time, you were trying to use leather-nails to connect skins together. Is it also part of the experiment?

Wu: That’s the newest experiment, for the work Head of Chiyou. It is not particularly big, about 1.3 meters square. We plan to divide it into to small irregularly shaped sections. After finishing carving each section, we will connect them into one piece. Talking about connecting sections, the most difficult is Heaven of Nine Levels. When I first showed the drawing to Mr. Wang, he was speechless and could not think of a way to do it. If we couldn’t divide the piece into smaller sections, it would be impossible to make. But if we use leather nails to connect sections, it would be too big for transportation. Finally we decided to cut the piece into sections of similar size and add a thin frame around each section. I had to be very careful to decide how to divide the design, for each section should contain a relatively complete image – key images, such as a face, should not be divided into small sections. I eventually decided on 450 x 550 mm for each section. Horizontally there are five to seven rows and vertically eleven columns. The piece has in total sixty-three small sections.

Yan: All these sections are connected together?

Wu: Yes, and it took us a long to time to figure out how to connect them. We started from the bottom. When we finished the lowest row, I found out that it was impossible to connect the straight lines. Large pieces of ox hide shrank in the process of carving, which resulted in a difference of about one centimeter in size. The bottom row has a lot of tails and other kinds of straight line, and the one centimeter difference made the connected image ugly. I was quite anxious, and Mr. Wang could not think of a way to solve the problem either. Eventually, I decided to expand the frame of each section to five millimeters in order to prevent distortion. It’s very successful, and we are able to keep the difference under five millimeters. This kind of experiment is very risky, for once a piece of hide shrinks, all the finished carvings will become useless. Moreover, the elasticity of ox hide changes when it is carved –the amount of carving also affects its elasticity. Even if two pieces of hide are from the same part of the same ox, if they have a different amount of carving, their elasticity will be different.

Yan: The more carving the greater difference in elasticity?

Wu: I think so. Mr. Wang and one of his assistants worked on Heaven of Nine Levels together. Several assistants also worked on the relatively easy parts. They worked for more than a year on the pieces – Even Mr. Wang thinks it is a miracle.

Incorporating Two Kinds of Thinking

Yan: What does he [Mr. Wang] think of the piece, as a traditional artist?

Wu: His understanding must be different from mine.

Yan: What’s his understanding? When I saw him last time, he talked a lot about how things were done in the past. I think his understanding of the piece is very different from yours.

Wu: I think for Mr. Wang the most valuable aspect is the technical breakthrough. We have different backgrounds and think differently. Mr. Wang thinks of how to use traditional techniques to realize new works and how to create good quality. When facing a challenge different from traditional methods, what should he do? What I think also includes other things. I think of the cultural environment I’m living in and the position of contemporary art. Of course these two kinds of thinking should work together. One cannot succeed without the other.

Yan: He thinks about how to contribute to the development of the tradition of shadow puppets. But you talk about the position of contemporary art. Are there other aspects? I think it is not as simple as this.

Wu: If you really want to ask me why I made Heaven of Nine Levels, it is very complicated to explain but I will try. Since I was small, I have always liked exaggerated and intricate designs. When I started to copy traditional images, this inclination became even clearer. I don’t like literati landscape painting or bird-and-flower painting. Some people may think they represent a different realm, which maybe true, but few such works interest me. On the contrary, I like artifacts, such as sculptures in Buddhist grottos, carved images in tombs, murals in temples, Tibetan Thanka , shadow puppets and so on. When I visit temples, I like the four guardian kings. They are not the protagonists in a temple and are made of cheaper material, but I am attracted to their armor, weapons and facial expressions. Even after I studied art history and its canon, I still like them better than Buddha and Bodhisattva images. Maybe my aesthetics are still not mature, still attracted to childish exaggerated designs.  

A Unique Experience

Yan: Don’t you think that it’s better to spend a lot of time and energy in making artworks?

Wu: In general yes. One needs to be sincere and devoted in order to make works of art, but not all attention should be paid to the technical aspects of making them. The key is whether the idea requires such attention to the technical aspects. If it is necessary, the more attention you pay to it the better. If 100 points is enough, it will be even better if you can try 120. However, the production process is only one of the many factors in the creation of a work of art. Sometimes the focus is the artist’s courage to experiment, sometimes his wisdom. It depends on the work. Tom Friedman’s works involve “no effort.” For example, he sharpens a pencil and hangs the spiral shaped pencil shaving from the ceiling. In another even simpler piece, he puts a piece of gum on the ceiling and stretches it all the way to the floor. I think these are amazing pieces. They seem simple, with no manual work involved. His energy was spent on the thinking process, and the result is unique pieces like these.

Yan: To stretch a piece of gum – people might ask, what’s the point of making it.

Wu: How to express it. When looking at a work of art, we are usually controlled by a “student attitude.” We feel nervous and try to understand it, whether this comes from the artist, a critic or ourselves. Then we judge the work according to its art historical value. In such a way of thinking the quality of a work depends on the existence of a value system and an interpretation. I call this approach “student attitude.” “Student attitude” will fade away as we go to more exhibitions. Our understanding will become more internalized instead of being straightforward – mature understanding will take a more active role in our evaluation. At the same time, this mature understanding comes from a long process of accumulation and a large amount of art historical experiences. It tolerates things difficult to interpret and creates memories that store unique yet powerful experiences.

Yan: There is a problem here, which also exists in your exhibition. In order to show your creation to the audience, you design the space, display the works, use light boxes and give out handouts, because you want the audience to understand the works better. But in fact, they don’t necessarily …

Wu: From the point of a creator, the important aspect is to establish a complete “space” for experiencing, instead of making the audience “understand” something. The purpose is not to spread knowledge or religion.

Yan: Perhaps art historical experience cannot work here.

Wu: What you said is perhaps an issue. I have a way of categorizing experiences and I think the same way. The first category includes experieces that shatter political constraints. Political oppression is its root - whenever there is oppression, there will be rebellion. Scar Art, '85 New Wave and Political Pop belong to this category. They are serious rebellions against political oppression. This is one way to create artistic value. The second category, I think, breaks through conventional ways of thinking. Artists' "ownership" of ways of understanding the world is strictly limited, but because of their ego, they often want to become the ultimate source of wisdom. They try to think in new ways and the result is a kind of creative criticism. Works of art belonging to this category need an auduience to understand them, and the unique experiences they provide depend on the audience's understanding. When the audience achieves this, they will discover the meaning of the works and the artist's contribution. Many artists work in this manner and their creatuions are often of permanent interest. The third kind of experience breaks through emotional inhibitions. Works of art belonging to tbis category expose personal and emotional history. Actually, an authentic personal emotion is also a collective one. When personal history is revealed, it can touch the hearts of other people and thus transcend emotional inhibitions. I think this category is the most exciting. In general inhibition is the major problem. When a person transcends his own deficiecies, he also transcends other people's deficiencies. What characterizes a work of art is the amplification of such a transcendent experience. All that is required is the open display of the spiritual effort involved.

Yan: Your way of categorization also involves evaluation.

Wu: I agree. I think the political is the lowest level. Once political oppression is overscome, the effort of shattering it seems artificial. When no oppression exists, where is the reaction coming from? It is superficial. Breaking through conventional ways of thinking is the second level. People always have all kinds of doubts concerning knowledge, so there is always need for re-interpretation. I think it's a chalenge to wisdom, but nothing more than that. The thrid category is the highest level. It requires courage - not just the courage to face others but also to face oneself. It also requires wisdom in order to explore as deeply as possible. If one does not go far enough, the results will seem shallow. But once the artist goes as far as he can, he will feel it from the bottom of his heart.

This categorization system only applies to authentic works of art. I feel that many contemporary works of art are not qualified for this evaluation method.

Yan: In fact, Heaven of Nine Levels, Xingtian and Chiyou, as we said at the beginning, express rebellious sentiment, or even fear.

Wu: Yes. Chiyou particularly shows fear.

Yan: Do you want your works to enter the history of contemporary art?

Wu: The desire is of course there, but I have pretty much given up the effort. If I think what I create is good and can provide a unique experience, even if nobody else shares the view, I think it’s worth the effort. However, if I don’t believe it, but people around me say I should proceed, I won’t do it. It’s not yours. It only becomes a tool to realize other people’s thoughts. The more you respect history, the less history respects you. If you find happiness through creation, you become a great person. A great person will enter history. I think it’s logical.