In Conversation - Wu Jian’an and Wu Hung

Wu Hung ("WH"): Let’s talk about how you started this project.

Wu Jian'an ("WJA"): It started as early as in 2010 when the title was “The Birth of the Galaxy.” The reason I like to tell stories through my art is that I have always loved story books, novels, comic books and all kinds of narratives. I believe stories are closely related to the visual arts, as the reader spontaneously conjures up visual scenes from sentences on the page. Visual arts, on the other hand, can be conceived and interpreted in the same way as stories. However, they differ in concept and form. The visual arts are more direct in the way they focus on particular aspects of the world, while stories or dramas are often more complicated. Usually there are several intertwining plots, forming a puzzle for the reader to solve. I want my art practice to be surprising and exciting as well.

WH: Did this interest start in 2010?

WJA: Around 2010 I’d say, when I was asked to have a solo exhibition titled The Birth of the Galaxy in a museum in Beijing in which my work was to be presented in a 500 sq.m space. It was challenging for me to create something for such a large area. I tried different plans and settled on paper-cuts as the central work. I was very familiar with this kind of installation as I was working on something similar in Hong Kong. It was formed from hundreds of Xingtian paper-cuts and figures from the Classic of Mountains and Seas. It was a valuable experience and served me as a basis for further exploration. So, I see this solo show as a breakthrough, as it was based on an extended narrative relating to Xingtian.

WH: So that’s how you thought about making the The Birth of the Galaxy series?

WJA: Yes. I’ve always been interested in rivers, so many civilizations flourished on the banks of rivers such as the Nile, the Ganges, and the Yellow River. In reality, rivers are not only important geographical features but also major factors in the origin of many civilizations. This is why there are so many references to rivers in Chinese mythology and literature. My favorite is the story Gong Gong Crushes Bu Zhou Mountain in Huainanzi.

WH: “The pillar supporting the sky is shattered.”

WJA: Yes, the pillar supporting the sky collapses, the rope holding the ground breaks. The firmament moves; the ground tilts towards the northwest, and the river flows with it. Gong Gong shattered the pillar of the s ky at Bu Zhou Mountain, causing the sky and ground to tilt towards the northwest according to ancient Chinese mythology. That’s why both the Yellow River and Yangtze River flow from west to east. Rivers are essential features when explorers make surveys of the land in order to draw maps. From ancient texts we know that to the east is the ocean, to the north is the desert, to the west is the mountain, and to the south is the forest. Agricultural civilization was born in the south where the land is fertile. Based on geographical characteristics, we divide the nation into “Zhongyuan”, “Dongyi”,“Beidi”, “Xirong”, “Nanman”. These divisions are the result of Gong Gong crushing the mountain. That’s the beauty of mythology and religion, that they intermingle conjectures with reality. They support and prove each other. We can see myths as a way to recognize the world rather than just as a form of literature.

WH: Yes.

WJA: Since Gong Gong is a Water God, his destruction led not only to the collapse of the sky and the earth but also resulted in floods. The story of Nuwa emerged later. Catastrophic floods are one of the main storylines in Chinese mythology, offering a contrary impression to the positive impression of mother river. Floods have been documented in Greek, Siberian, Indian, and Mayan manuscripts. They had an even more direct effect on the politics of ancient China since controlling floods was a primary consideration in ruling over a nation. The ability to prevent and control floods determined how well a ruler was regarded or even how legitimate he was as a leader. Da Yu’s story is a typical example of this belief, as old tales say, “A sage rules the flood before he rules a kingdom.” If a ruler was able to prevent floods he had the political right to rule and to demand obeisance.

WU: Indeed. Da Yu inaugurated dynastic rule in China. His father was killed after his failure to control the flood.

WJA: Yes, there are numerous cases of changes in dynasties caused by the destructive effects of floods. It has always been seen as the straw that broke the camel’s back. Floods did not necessarily destroy a regime. For instance, Shang, Han, Tang, Qing rulers handled floods competently, so there were no fatal catastrophes. However, if the ruler was derelict in his duties or corrupt, the government was not strong enough to address the catastrophe. In cases like these floods accelerated the decline of a country. Similar stories have been told in folktales and dramas, for instance the Yuan government conscripted farmers to restore the banks of the Yellow River after they had been breached. Farmers found a stone figure with one eye, which resonates with the old saying “one-eyed stone figure from the Yellow River incites revolution.” Following this discovery, the Farmer’s Revolution of the Yuan Dynasty occurred. There was something even more mysterious, when a farmer found a white stone in the Luo River with the inscription “the Divine Mother arrives and takes the crown.” This seemed to indicate that Wu Zetian was the legitimate ruler of the nation. There are many similar tales in history and needless to say stories are frequently created by individuals who want public support. Generally speaking these tales emerge as superstitions, or as propaganda to legitimize the ruler.

Wu: I recall a book about Emperor Sui Yang digging the Great Canal. Some plots are similar to the story you just mentioned, especially in unofficial documentations. The concept of the river comes in many different forms containing many layers of complex meanings.

WJA: When we talk about rivers, we think of our motherland, which is very special. There might not be such a strong connection between the river and political aspects in other countries. It is a unique characteristic that flourished in our traditions and reality. As we have been saying, these associations were born in ancient mythology and civilizations and developed as society evolved. It took a very long time for people to recognize the river as a sort of identity, or belief. On the other hand, it also refers to a theory of ruling or political philosophy. Its evolution has a kind of romantic, poetic flavor reflecting the emergence of political structures from the very beginning of time. It is for this reason that I named this work The Birth of the Galaxy so as to remind viewers of my interpretation of this belief, and to let the story and definition of the river in our tradition return to life when they see my art. I have a very high regard for a passage relating to floods in Lu Xun’s Old Tales Retold. I quoted part of in my 2014 work. Of course, his other books are also outstanding. Although Old Tales Retold is not as famous as Call To Arms & Wandering, it is what I read many times when I was young. Even now, his stories give me a great deal of pleasure.

Wu: I agree, it is a pleasure to read. The writing style of the book is just like the style of Han portrait bricks. It is unadorned.

WJA: Right. It utilized the most modest way to address complicated subjects. For example, in Song of the Bowman of Shu the author symbolized Bo Yi and Shu Qi who represent dignity as two old men craving deer meat. The detailed description of their life in the mountain transforms two solemn, dignified moral heroes into secular, jocular, wild men. It is a gloomy, bitter life that is depicted rather than deadly despair. It is more like a powerful aesthetic galvanization, a living torture. Old Tales Retold revises old stories as warnings to contemporaries, and also encourages people to re- explore myth and history. I admire it a great deal and aim to work in the same spirit as Lu Xun.

Wu: I like this explanation. It offers a key to liberate stories that have been locked up and forgotten. Very often after countless generations of being handed down verbally myths become nothing but meaningless stories, yet you reinvigorate these stories with new meanings. It is interesting.

WJA: My solo show Transformation: A Tale of Contemporary Art and Intangible Culture Heritage at Prince Kung’s Palace was a revision of The Legend of the White Snake. I’ll discuss that later. Let’s focus on the river now. In The Birth of the Galaxy, I made up a story in which Xingtian and Huangdi are brothers. In fact, in the Classic of Mountains and Seas, Xingtian is Huangdi’s servant, and Huang is Xing’s master. They are not on the same level. After their legendary fight, Huangdi beheaded Xingtian but my story offers another version and continues after he was beheaded. The whole work consists of twelve paper-cuts assembled like a long scroll. From a distance they resemble the mountains of Guilin, and the composition and color choice are chosen to resemble the Dunhuang murals. Each paper-cut constitutes one part of the mountain range. They are abstracted; some are similar to human faces, and some look like a weapon. There are twelve of them: Innocence, Pursue, Water Control, Eliminate Outsiders, Support and Opposition, Killing Intent, Beheaded, Hidden, Courage and Ambition, The South, Rare Treasure, Search. They compose a whole story. When the viewers come closer, they’ll notice that each mountain is composed of thousands of small figures of Xingtian and other gods from the Classic of Mountains and Seas. The exhibition begins with Innocence. In the story Xingtian who has one horn and Huangdi who has three horns are good friends. They chase after girls, control floods, and fight side by side. We can see the face of a figure hidden in the mountain in Eliminate Outsiders.

Wu: Oh sure, I see.

WJA: In Support and Opposition, the viewer can see Huangdi facing to the left and Xingtian facing right, indicating disagreement starting to develop between them. A head is hidden in the mountain, barely visible to the viewer if they don’t look closely. He represents an evil person, or third-party power, who is inferior to the brothers. In the end he divided them. Following are Killing Intent and Beheaded, in which Huangdi determined to kill Xingtian. As thousands of swords pointed toward the sky, Xingtian was beheaded, and his blood gushed from the wound. In order to prevent Xingtian reviving, Huangdi sealed his head in the mountain with the Kun Wu Sword. There is a story by Tao Yuanming describing Xingtian battling the giant Gan Qi, brandishing the sword in the mountain while blood gushes from his wounds. I named the scene Courage and Ambition. The sky is restless.

The riot continues in The South, representing the monarchy of Huangdi as an old man in after he had killed Xingtian. The story of Xingtian and Huangdi working together for their country has become a legend, and Xingtian’s head has become a lost treasure. Search tells a story about people looking for his head and accusing Huangdi, or wanting to revive Xingtian. They want to prove that power was shared harmoniously between the them.

Wu: So, although the work is called The Birth of the Galaxy, the galaxy or the river are barely shown, but are only presented in a few paragraphs. The story is a metaphor, isn’t it?

WJA: Right.

Wu: You started two years ago in 2013?

WJA: Yes, and I spent a long time on it.

WU: Has it ever shown to the public?

WJA: No, not yet. The exhibition was canceled for several reasons.

WU: What was the size of this piece?

WJA: 2.5 x 21 m

WU: Are you planning to reveal the story explicitly in the form of texts, or let it remain hidden in the work itself?

WJA: I’m not sure actually. Probably not.

WU: I think you should. I was enthralled by the story when you explained it to me. It doesn’t do any harm. Dunhuang music and Shu Lai Bao (rhythmic storytelling) are all written.

WJA: I really don’t think I want to.

WU: It does not need to be as serious as a published paper, but I think that text helps the viewer to understand. Just like Shu Lai Bao does.

WJA: Or I can find someone to sing the text?

WU: Exactly. Video can be interesting as well. Or shadow play, or preaching. The story itself is intriguing.

WJA: To supplement the paper-cut collages I wanted to make an installation made of salt and skulls. The ground was to be covered with salt and three skulls were to be hidden in the salt. The scene resonates with the plot of Search, in which people are trying to find Xingtian’s head. The concept of three skulls is similar to the scenario in Lu Xun’s Zhu Jian in which the heads of Mei Jian Chi, Zhou Xuan, and Yan Zhi’Ao’s are all stewed in one pot and cannot be distinguished from one another, becoming “Three King’s graveyard.” This situation is interesting to me since it represents the non-existence of truth. People wasted their time trying to find Xingtian’s head as if they could have proved how liberal the political environment was when Xingtian ruled. But in fact, nothing would have changed even if they had been able to find the head since Xingtian was already dead. It is even possible that some careerist would have used the head as a sign of legitimacy for wearing the crown, just like the story of farmers finding a carved stone from Yellow River. We set a goal to achieve, yet sometimes it is hard to identify the original motivation , and the idealized visions are not achieved.

I want to display some kinds of “monsters.” Some are as huge as elephants, rhinoceros, and nine-headed tigers; some are deer and sheep. I’m planning to turn them into musical instruments. Some monsters relate to the monsters in Classic of Mountains and Seas; for instance, the nine-headed tiger is “Kaiming” from Kun Lun Mountain. But I will not represent them precisely as they are in Classic of Mountains and Seas. For instance, there’s no indication of monsters who have eyes on their back in Egypt, Roman, or Greek mythology, so I’ll start from there. On the other hand, the depiction of monsters in Classic of Mountains and Seas are all in the text, which leaves the reader room for imagination. The illustration of the nine- headed tiger shows a creature as tall as a tiger with nine human faces. It is hard to imagine how the heads could emerge from the shoulders as it would be hard for the creature to move its nine heads if they are all placed horizontally on its shoulders. A similar creature was also mentioned in Journey to the West, but its depiction was not satisfying to me in both traditional dramas and TV shows-it has one large head surround by eight small ones. The nine-headed bird in shadow play is the same, so I want to do something different.

WU: Artists from the Han dynasty did not know how to draw the nine-tailed fox. How do you think you should draw nine tails? They drew only one tail with nine splits at the end and called it the nine- tailed fox. It is wrong.

WJA: The Dunhuang murals have a blue nine-headed monster. Its heads are repetitive with the same features, horizontally aligned on the shoulder just like a police squad. I think that’s interesting.

WU: There are two in No .249 cave. Some people say it’s the human emperor; some say it’s a nine-headed monster.

WJA: Yes, it is from Western Wei. It is the best among those I’ve seen because it is the least realistic.

WU: I believe it is a kind of textual creation. Number nine has a magical power. It is an imaginary number, but at Dunhuang the Chinese character is visualized. All the animals share traits like strange eyes and they are all musical instruments. Where does this thought come from, I mean animals as musical instruments? Is it from Classic of Mountains and Seas? Indeed, there is some kind of animal, like a cow, that can make a sound.

WJA: Yes, it is call Kui, a buffalo with one horn.

WU: You transformed sound and musical instruments into a unified theme, right? Why do musical instruments mean so much to you that you make them real things?

WJA: I like how the animals in Classic of Mountains and Seas are depicted, for example, their sounds. The sound of Dan Zhu, the son of Rao who later became a human-headed bird with birds’ feet and human hands, is his own name. The author of Classic of Mountains and Seas generally depicts a character with specific description of the creature’s bodily features and sound, which I think is special. In Homer’s Odyssey, Egyptian mythology, there are not many descriptions in which the visual and the auditory are presented simultaneously. I think it is an interesting aspect of the different ways in which ancient people perceived the world. It is always an omen. Furthermore, such descriptions in Classic of Mountains and Seas nearly always appear as omens. For example, if a creature appears and howls, usually at night, people know that they need to report to the emperor that something is going to happen.

Wu: I’ve written something on this. Also, those signs are usually bad news, not good news, which is interesting.

WJA: Yes, so I want to make those creatures make some noise, let the viewers detach themselves from the visual aspect in order to respond to a wider variety of sense impressions.

WU: Probably most viewers cannot imagine that far. First of all, some of those animals have eyes on their back while others, for instance the sheep, have tiger’s eyes. It is also interesting that they make the sound because they are musical instruments, not because they make the sound through their vocal cords. In my interpretation, the Classic of Mountains and Seas demonstrates a peculiar sound-making process. The creatures make their noise on their own, yet in your work, the creatures are operated on in order to make a sound-they became musical instruments-how do you respond to that?

WJA: Simply making sounds is too close to the original description, which is not what I need in order to add my own perspective and feelings concerning the theme of omens. The sound of musical instruments is made and controlled by humans; in other words, music comes to be through human intervention. This also applies to the concept of omens. Omens become monsters through human fantasy; their sound portends positive or negative signs, and their presence represents a consequence of their appearance and reality. This connection is created by humans, needed by humans. I visualized the creatures as musical instruments that can be played in order to make sound. As for the music, I don’t mind if it’s the saxophone or an infant crying. I have a secret hidden in it.

WU: Just as you said, you admire Lu Xun’s approach to literary creation - to twist the myth a little. Straightforward descriptions are not fun, and the truth does not matter that much. You can twist it a little and recreate it according to your perspective. It is very particular in that it produces a connection between the old and the new. How exactly does it function? How is the sound produced?

WJA: I talked to some of my composer friends, including Tan Dun. He gave me some advice and said that he could find somebody to perform during the exhibition. Zhang Ziqian taught me a lot about western and Chinese traditional music theory and the sound- making process, which was crucial for my creation. It helped me understand how to reshape the cavities, to choose the right material, and to calculate the length of the cavity for controlling the sound. Since an animal’s body is different from usual music instruments regarding shape and material, the sound it makes is unique. Some of them are a mixture of drum and horn. We will also work together with the musician Xiao He (He Guofeng) who uses many musical instruments he has made himself. For instance, a tiny wood panel can make a bizarre sound. I think we can invite him to the live show.

WU: That is to say, the sound of the newly-created musical instruments can be controlled?

WJA: Yes, take the sheep as an example. Inside its body is hidden a refitted saxophone. If you blow hard it sounds like a whistle, and professionals can play an even higher pitch. But it is unlike traditional musical instruments and we are still in the process of experimenting.

WU: So, when all the instruments are played it can be like a symphony —the combination of unique sounds made by interesting cavities.

WJA: Yes, sometimes the sound is muffled, sometimes it is loud. I want to add a Kaminarimon keyboard in the rhinoceros, played by electromagnetic induction. It has a metal wire and an induction area, in which the player changes the position of his hand to change the sound without touching it.

WU: Interesting. Are the animal music instruments going to be played during the opening?

WJA: Yes, that’s what I plan.

WU: They don’t have to be put all together. Separate them. That way the sound comes from every corner of the room, here and there. I think maybe that’s better, just like a real show.

WJA: Sure, that is an interesting idea. I can record the sound and play it in the exhibition hall. When designing these animals, I was also hoping to remind the viewer of famous tales and stories when they see the player interact with the animal musical instruments. The action can be seen as the epitome of historical events, mythologies, and religious tales. The rhinoceros is just like Dürer’s depiction of it in his famous print. The deer with Suona in its bell looks las if he is nourishing the player when he blows the Suona. It resonates with the story of Bo yi and Shu qi drinking deer milk when they were starving.

Also, when the musician “plays” the sheep, he or she needs to blow through the sheep's ear, which is similar to the scene of Moses whispering to sheep in the Old Testament. Through the performance the viewer might be reminded of something he has encountered before, perhaps an omen in a different geographical or chronological context. However, you might not be able to identify it - it is more like a shadow, or an image from a dream - you find it familiar, but you cannot be sure whether it is what you are thinking about.

WU: Right, familiar but not sure. We can go even further, for

instance when seeing a person and the deer I am reminded of the legend of Romulus and Remus being suckled by a she-wolf in Roman mythology. There are many related legends.

WJA: That’s what I mean. It is like a maze where what you see is not fixed. I give small hints to the viewers, so they can use their own imagination. The purpose of doing this is as follows: as we have been saying, mythology and prophecies are meaningful because they are an expression of human volition. They are created according to the needs of human beings. Some people believe that they have a strong connection with significant historical events, but I think it is a subjective choice. There is another kind of story concerning humans interpreting omens and controlling supernatural power, or revising omens. You could also say it is like human attempts to disrupt the course of nature. Alexander the Great is an example. According to an oracle the person who could unravel the Gordian knot would become ruler of Asia. When Alexander was unable to untie it, he sliced it in half with his sword. Through addressing the problem in this way, he acted in a way unforeseen by the gods. This legend leads to a redefinition of how omens could be fulfilled. That’s what I mean when I say that humans create and control omens. Of course, only the minority of creators realize the consequence of their behavior, while the majority participate in creating. The musical components“Mi Hun Zhen” resonates with this idea, and the animal specimens strengthen the concept.

Wu: Good. How many animals are there?

WJA: Nine, including sheep, goat, deer, rhinoceros, horse, elephant, tiger, goose and rooster.

WU: Through their overwhelming presence, the animals are the most important aspect of the exhibition. As we intend to place them quite far apart them from each other, the visual and the auditory effect will also be strengthened. You said you want to add sound, especially for people who cannot attend the opening ceremony, right?

WJA: Yes. Do you think it is proper for the audience to play the musical instruments?

WU: No. If they do, it contradicts what you have been saying. The musical instruments are not something to play, but rather a sign representing something that is terrifying, taboo. As you said, some people would be able to participate but most people are scared to do so. So, it shouldn’t be the audience who play the instruments. Mythology needs to be detached from ordinary life in order to become myths, if not it becomes commonplace. Audience participation would neutralize the mystical aspects, rather than emphasizing them. That is my opinion, but we can discuss further possibilities. On the operational level it is interesting because your work is not only a visual representation. It contains different layers of meaning.

WJA: Sure. In addition to the two series of works we have been discussing, there will be a group of large brass sculptures. The forms of the sculptures are based on my early two-dimensional paper-cuts, some of which are quite abstract and strange. The intricate forms are cast in brass, the intersecting panels forming three-dimensional sculptures.

WU: Are they similar to Golden Tree?

WJA: Yes. They are similar.

WU: I really like that work.What size are they this time? WJA: The tallest are 1.4m in height. There are ten altogether.

WU: Can you differentiate them in terms of size? Some are taller while others are shorter. Exotic bases can also be interesting. They can be put together with those animals, becoming a three- dimensional equivalent of a landscape painting. However, since their patterns are so strange it will not be a real landscape.

WJA: I like your idea. Previously I thought the sculptures should be separated from the animals, creating a conflict between two groups of works.

WU: Yes, I think The Birth of the Galaxy series can be put in the museum's long hallway. But we need to discuss where we should put the three skulls piece. There are still some unsolved questions in my mind, but they are minor. I prefer something simple. I talked to Xu Bing yesterday regarding the show in Rome. I encouraged him to reduce the number of works. Xu agreed, but Rome did not. They want more. Sometimes when two important works are exhibited together, they tend to weaken the show rather than strengthen it. They overshadow each other. Individually they look good, but they weaken the viewer’s focus if they are put together.

I am really intrigued by your ideas, particularly your reflections on the river. So much of your work is related to this idea, which reveals your thoughts on China’s political-historical traditions. Some important concepts originated long before the beginning of a country’s history and mythology, and still continued developing. The idea is already deep and meaningful, and in this exhibition, you developed it even further to a new level that has its own perspective, building on top of what you have presented previously. For the audience, the experience of listening to a conversation is

quite different from seeing the exhibition , which we need to work on and to present more directly. The river is not only a symbol but also a visual message. The viewers have a fixed image of the river in their mind's eye and try to find where this is located in the works. Of course, we can explain it by saying the river is only a concept and not a real presence, but in my opinion, we need to introduce our theme more directly. With that, we can go further to a higher level which considered as a whole better assists the audience in interpreting the exhibition. Perhaps the title “The Birth of the Galaxy” is a bit far away from the theme. It is too broad.

WJA: It is detached from the main idea.

WU: Right. There are many concepts and background stories the audience needs to know to fully understand your work. It is a bit off-putting. To me, from what you’ve said so far the most compelling visual and conceptual aspect is associated with the“omen.” You combined the existence of omens with politics, which resonates with Michel Foucault’s thought. Later, science, especially natural science, is introduced and explains part of it. Your explanation is even more tightly bound, so we need to find a proper theme for your exhibition description to develop fully.

WJA: I wanted to try VR technology, but I don’t know if I can do it this time. I’m not sure how many technical obstacles I need to overcome. The idea is to let the audience wear VR devices while the live music continues playing. They will see a colorful 3D cube floating above the animals, while the musicians are playing the music. They will see cubes floating as if the souls of animals are coming out of their body.

WU: There is something similar during ancient times, for instance, She Li from the Tang dynasty or so-called Qi Bao Liu Li. Those monks were magicians; they knew how to perform many tricks.

WJA: Yes, use some technology to make the illusion happen. Unexpected things always intrigue people.

WU: When I curated an exhibition in Guangzhou, the Taiwanese artists Lin Shumin used an interesting approach. He created a number of works controlled responsively by brain waves. He was inspired by a Buddhist concept and designed a device similar to a water fountain. In the fountain, there is an electronic device that reflects the patterns of the audience’s brainwaves when they wear the helmet. There are two types of images, lotus and fish. He did not explain why one appears rather than the other. My image was a lotus, one of my friends only saw a fish. I like this piece a lot. He later had an exhibition in Beijing, but I liked the previous one better. Then he disappeared, and we don’t know why. He was famous at that time and showed his work in the Venice Bienniale when he was quite young. We also cooperated once in Guomao when cell phones were a new invention and were not mass produced. We talked about the name, which was “A sage preaches on the river .” He bought a SIM card with a phone number, and the audience could text anything they liked to this number when they entered the exhibition hall. Texts flow as waterfalls; as more and more messages come in, the waterfalls become more and more intense.

WJA: Was it real water?

WU: No. it was an imitation of water consisting of text messages.

WJA: I saw something similar in Japan using real water but even without water it could be fun.

WU: His work did not include water but only electronic messages and words. Your mention of VR technology made me think of that piece. But the difference is that the audience could actually see the images, but your work does not allow that. What is most important is the sound. You want to record the music and play it in the gallery?

WJA: Yes, because a daily live show is a little beyond my budget.

WU: Of course.

WJA: I was thinking about recording the musical performance or recording it before the show and placing speakers everywhere. Or we could set sensors that play the sound as the viewers approach, and stop when the audience walks away.

WU: An easier way is to record the performance and hang a screen at the entrance. Or you could play the recording continuously. Since some of the sounds produced from the animals are loud howls while others are much quieter, you don’t want the voices to be loud. Played in the gallery, it should contribute to the three - dimensional spatial experience with low-pitched sound.

WJA: Just like in a valley.

WU: Yes. Animals in a valley howl like this. They are at a considerable distance from each other, and they howl out of the blue. We can have a brief explanation while there is some text as well.

WJA: Cool, let’s do this. I haven’t thought of combining the bronze trees and animals, but it’s a very good idea.

WU: You have to consider the size of the pieces if you are putting them together. It has to be a comfortable size.

WJA: Sure, I will make models as references.

*Wu Hung, a permanent member of the American Academy of Art and Sciences, is a celebrated art historian, critic, and curator. Currently he holds the Harrie A. Vanderstappen Distinguished Service Professorship at the Department of Art History and the Department of East Asian Lan- guages and Civilizations at the University of Chicago, and is also the direc- tor of the Center for the Art of East Asia and the Consulting Curator at the Smart Museum at the same university. He sits on many international committees including Guggenheim Museum’s Asian Art Council, and chairs the Academic Committees of OCAT Museums and Yuz Museum. He is also the Director of the OCAT Research Institute.